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George Saunders On Revisions, Writing For Ghosts, And The Joy Of Reading Fiction In Tough Times

The Late Show With Stephen Colbert

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0:01>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.

0:03LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

0:09MY NEXT GUEST IS THE NUMBER ONE NEW YORK TIMES

0:12BESTSELLING, BOOKER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR OF

0:15THIRTEEN BOOKS.

0:16HIS LATEST IS "VIGIL."

0:18PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW," GEORGE SAUNDERS.

0:24[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] ♪ ♪ HI, GEORGE.

0:35WELCOME BACK.

0:38>> George: SO NICE TO BE HERE.

0:40THIS PICTURE RIGHT HERE, I WANT TO HAVE THIS IN MY MIND

0:43FOREVER.

0:44>> Stephen: I WOULDN'T MIND HAVING THIS ONE IN MY MIND

0:47FOREVER.

0:48>> George: IT'S THE FOURTH TIME I'VE BEEN ON, FIFTH

0:50TIME MAYBE I WANT TO SAY ONE THING.

0:52YOU COME HERE NERVOUS, I DO, A WRITER DOES.

0:56THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE ON THE SHOW, THE PRODUCERS,

0:59EVERYBODY, SO SWEET AND IT MAKES A BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE

1:03I KNOW IT COMES FROM THE TOP DOWN SO THANK YOU FOR THAT.

1:06>> Stephen: THAT'S LOVELY TO SAY AND I COMPLETELY AGREE.

1:09VERY LUCKY TO WORK WITH HIS AMAZING GROUP OF PEOPLE.

1:13CONGRATULATIONS.

1:14IN NOVEMBER YOU WERE AWARDED THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION

1:17-- I'M GOING TO GET THIS RIGHT, LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT

1:20PRIZE.

1:21YOUR WRITING GIVES ME SO MUCH, GIVES THE WORLD SO

1:24MUCH.

1:25WHAT DOES WRITING GIVE YOU?

1:27>> George: YOU KNOW, MY PROCESS IS REALLY

1:30REVISION-HEAV PROCESS IS REALLY REVISION-

1:32REVISION-HEAVY.

1:33OVER AND OVER, DAY AFTER DAY AND IN THAT PROCESS WHAT

1:36WORKS FOR ME IS TO IMAGINE THE READER AS BEING KIND OF

1:40BETTER THAN ME, SMARTER AND MORE WORLDLY AND MORE

1:44COMPASSIONATE AND FUNNIER SO YOU ARE ALWAYS WRITING UP TO

1:47THAT PERSON SO THAT'S A REVISION STRATEGY.

1:49YOU READ SOMETHING AND GO "THAT'S KIND OF DULL."

1:54SO AFTER THE YEARS OF DOING THAT, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS A

1:57BETTER VERSION OF ME WILL APPEAR ON THE PAGE WHICH IS

2:01SO REFRESHING.

2:03I'M NOT THE USUAL DUMMY.

2:05>> Stephen: DOES THAT MAKE YOU WANT TO EDIT EVERYTHING

2:08YOU DO AND SAY IN YOUR LIFE?

2:10>> George: 100%.

2:11CAN WE DO IT AGAIN.

2:13>> Stephen: YOU CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION DIFFERENTLY IF

2:14YOU'D LIKE.

2:16>> George: WHAT HAPPENS IS, I'M OVER HERE TRYING TO BE

2:19MY BEST SELF AND HOPEFULLY THE READER FEELS THAT.

2:22THEN WE BOTH KIND OF COME OUT OF THE USUAL KIND OF

2:25HABITUAL SELF AND HAVE A LITTLE MOMENT OF HIGH-LEVEL

2:28UNION.

2:29THAT'S REALLY BEAUTIFUL.

2:30>> Stephen: RIGHT NOW FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IS A TIME OF

2:34ENORMOUS STRESS AND TURMOIL.

2:36I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK THE ROLE OF ART IS IN

2:42TIMES OF DARKNESS?

2:43>> George: A LOT OF WRITERS ARE WORRIED ABOUT THIS.

2:47I THINK SOMETIMES YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE DOING, KIND OF

2:49PAINTING THE BASEBOARDS AND THEN THE CEILING COMES DOWN.

2:52IT CAN FEEL LIKE THAT.

2:54BUT FOR ME, SO I WANT THE READER TO FEEL THAT I'M

2:59THERE WITH HER.

3:00THE WAY YOU DO THAT IS IN REVISION YOU TRY TO GET IN

3:02TOUCH WITH SOME TRUTH THAT YOU SHARE.

3:05SO I THINK NOW IT'S NOT A HUGE THING BUT IT'S NOT

3:08NOTHING.

3:09WE CAN LOOK AT A TEXT AND BY DOING THAT WE CAN

3:12RECALIBRATE OUR RELATIONSHIP TO TRUTH.

3:15THIS ADMINISTRATION SEEMS TO BE WORKING AT A TASK OF

3:19LYING SO OFTEN THAT WE GET USED TO IT.

3:23IT'S LIKE IF YOU'RE IN A REALLY FANCY RESTAURANT AND

3:25THE WAITER BRINGS IN THREE TURDS ON A TRAY.

3:28>> Stephen: UNDER A SILVER DOME.

3:31>> George: BASIC SANITY IS TO SAY "WAITER, TAKE THIS

3:38AWAY."

3:39BUT THE IDEA IS IF YOU KEEP BRINGING THE TURDS ON A

3:42TRAY, YOU'RE LIKE, LEAVE IT.

3:43I'LL GET USED TO IT.

3:44BRING ME A FORK.

3:45>> Stephen: EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMS TO BE ENJOYING IT.

3:49MAYBE I'M CRAZY.

3:50>> George: SO IN A SMALL WAY I FEEL LIKE THINGS ARE SO

3:54CONFUSING AND SO SAD AND SO CRUEL, THIS CRUELTY.

3:59FOR A COUPLE MINUTES A DAY, I AM LIKE YEAH, I DON'T KNOW

4:01WHAT I CAN DO BUT I CAN RECALIBRATE MY RELATION TO

4:04TRUTH.

4:05[APPLAUSE] >> Stephen: WHAT IS THE ROLE OF FICTION IN

4:07TIMES LIKE THIS?

4:08SOME PEOPLE, I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE, SOME

4:12PEOPLE SAY FICTION IS NOT GOOD AT A TIME LIKE THIS

4:15BECAUSE IT'S A FORM OF ESCAPISM.

4:17WHAT DO YOU THINK?

4:18>> George: MY EXPERIENCE WITH FICTION AS IT FREES UP

4:21EVERYTHING.

4:22YOU HAVE TO BE ACCURATE TO ANYTHING EXCEPT THE SOUL

4:25ESSENTIALLY.

4:26SO IN THAT SENSE IT'S SO FREE.

4:31I THINK THAT IN ITSELF IS REALLY POWERFUL.

4:34I HAVE THE FEELING WITH FICTION,

4:37A WRITER CAN REACH OUT AND EVEN IF THE PERSON IS VERY

4:40DIFFERENT FROM YOU, YOU CAN HIT SOMETHING ESSENTIAL.

4:43I TALKED TO A COUPLE SOMEWHERE IN MY TRAVELS.

4:46THEY WERE LIKE MEDIATION PEOPLE.

4:49DIVORCES, CORPORATE PROBLEMS AND STUFF.

4:51THEY SAID IN THE MOST DIFFICULT CASES WHAT THEY

4:54WOULD DO IS TAKE A CHECK OF THE STORY AND ASKED THE

4:58DIFFERENT PARTIES TO READ IT AND THEY SAID IT WAS SO

5:00AMAZING BECAUSE WHATEVER THE REAL PROBLEM WAS, THEY

5:03DIDN'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT.

5:04THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THESE IMAGINARY PEOPLE IN A

5:07STORY.

5:08AND IN THE PROCESS THEY SAID PEOPLE WOULD BECOME WEIRDLY

5:11VULNERABLE.

5:11THEY WOULD CONFESS THINGS.

5:16I THINK THAT'S FROM THE TIME WE ARE LITTLE OUR PARENTS

5:20ARE TELLING US A STORY AND WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE SENSE

5:22OF THE UNIVERSE THROUGH MADE-UP THINGS WHICH FREES

5:25US FROM THE CONSTRAINT OF EVERY DAY THE INDIVIDUAL.

5:28SKU AND YOU AND I CAN SPEAK AT EACH OTHER BUT LET'S SAY

5:34WE ARE BOTH READING THE SAME BOOK FOR .

5:37LET'S SAY WE WERE ALL READING "VIGIL."

5:39>> George: LET'S SAY THAT.

5:40I THINK IT'S GOOD TO BUY TWO OR THREE COPIES.

5:44>> Stephen: OBVIOUSLY BUY TWO OR THREE COPY SO YOU

5:47HAVE ONE EVERYWHERE YOU GO.

5:48BUT WE ARE SIDE-BY-SIDE FACING THE STORY TOGETHER

5:53AND EXPERIENCING IT IN A SIMILAR WAY WHICH IS ONE OF

5:56THE REASONS WHY EVEN THOUGH YOU WON THE BOOKER PRIZE IN

5:58NATIONAL BOOK AWARD, RIGHT NOW I'M ABOUT TO BESTOW ON

6:01YOU THE HIGHEST PRICE IN THE BOOK COULD POSSIBLY GET

6:04BECAUSE I'M EXCITED TO ANNOUNCE THAT "VIGIL" WILL

6:07BE "THE LATE SHOW" BOOK CLUBS FEBRUARY PICK.

6:10WE ARE ALL GOING TO READ "VIGIL."

6:15THERE YOU GO.

6:16IT COMES WITH A MUG WHICH I DON'T THINK THE BOOKER PRIZE

6:19COMES WITH.

6:19AND IT COMES WITH A BOOKMARK.

6:21THAT'S FOR YOU.

6:22YOU GET TO KEEP IT.

6:23>> George: I APPRECIATE IT.

6:29THANK YOU.

6:31>> Stephen: I LOVE LINCOLN AT THE BARDO.

6:33IT ALSO DEALS WITH DEATH IN THE AFTERLIFE.

6:37THIS DOES AS WELL.

6:39DID YOU MEAN TO WRITE ABOUT GHOSTS OR THE AFTERLIFE

6:43AGAIN OR DID YOU START WRITING IN A GHOST JUST

6:44WAFTS INTO THE ROOM?

6:45>> George: IT'S MORE LIKE THAT.

6:47I THINK THE WRITER IS LIKE A ROLLER COASTER DESIGNER.

6:52IN THE BEGINNING I DON'T YOU SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU'RE

6:55TRYING TO DO.

6:56BUT YOU'RE TRYING TO THRILL THE READER.

6:59I THINK YOU LOVE FLANNERY O'CONNOR.

7:01SAYING A WRITER CAN CHOOSE WHAT HE WRITES BUT HE CAN'T

7:07CHOOSE WHAT HE MAKES LIVE.

7:10YOU MIGHT HAVE MADE YEAH I AM THIS KIND OF WRITER BUT

7:12IF YOU DO IT AND IT'S BORING YOU'RE NOT THAT KIND OF

7:15WRITER.

7:16SO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO BE A STRING QUARTET

7:18WRITER LIKE SHOSTAKOVICH AND YOU'RE RIGHT WHEN EVERYONE

7:21FALLS ASLEEP, THAT'S NOT IT BUT IF YOU PLAY A POLKA AND

7:25THEY DANCE, THEN IT'S GOOD.

7:27FOR ME IF I HAVE A REAL STORY LIKE A COUPLE HAVING A

7:31SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT THEIR MARRIAGE, I CAN'T DO

7:35IT.

7:36BUT IF I LET HER DEAD MOM DRIFT IN AND THE DEAD MOM

7:40DOESN'T LIKE THE HUSBAND, THAT I'VE BEEN HAVING.

7:44>> Stephen GEORGE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

7:46SUCH A PLEASURE.

7:49"VIGIL" IS AVAILABLE NOW.

7:51IT'S A "LATE SHOW" FEBRUARY BOOK CLUB PICK.

7:54GO GET IT.

7:54GEORGE SAUNDERS, EVERYBODY.

7:55WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.